wolves in sheeps clothing (1 views)
From:  itfigures   11/12/2001 2:33 am  
To:  ALL    
 
  255.1  
 
Driven To Darkness 
by 

David Wilkerson 

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.... And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:20, 22). 

Last night I attended a Christian music festival. I will never forget what I saw, and I can truly say it was a heartbreaking experience. Since leaving the concert I have been weeping for hours, groaning in the Spirit feeling the wrath of a holy God burning against what I saw. 

I went to the festival because the "star performer" featured last night had been in my office just hours before, crying, telling me how much he loved Jesus, how sincere he was, how he wanted to learn more about holiness. He told me my written messages convicted him. His words sounded right - his attitude seemed humble. At his request I went to hear him and his group because he assured me I would not be offended. 

My heart is now so set on the massive human need in New York City, and my great concerns now have to do with rescuing last souls from drugs, alcohol and demon possession. I did not want to get involved anymore in the matter of rock and roll, heavy metal, and punk music in the church. I felt I had said enough on the subject and I told the musician so when he sat in my office. We had prayed together and I hugged him when he left my office. 

I went last night with an open heart, full of love and compassion - for him, for all Christian musicians, and especially for the 3,000 or so young people attending the festival. I sat through two devotional-type songs, then I sat attentively listening as the musician testified about what he said Christ had done in his life. No preacher anywhere could have spoken with more conviction and sincerity - the words were right. He spoke of separation, of being obedient to Jesus, of winning souls, of prayer, of holy matrimony (he was married), of living a holy life. I prayed as he spoke, "Dear Lord, maybe I misjudged this musician and his hard rock group. Maybe you are doing something new in using the music the ungodly prefer, to win them - to get their attention, to attract them so they can be ministered to. Lord, I am willing to rejoice in hearing You preached, in any manner, from any group - if You are present in it - if your Holy Spirit is blessing it." 

I was honestly questioning if my writings about the music of devils in God's house were just old-fashioned prejudices or simply my distaste for rock music. Was it just so much fuss about nothing? Yet something was not quite right. There was an inner tug at my heart making me ill at ease. I reasoned, "If Satan is camouflaged in this somehow, if there is a leaven of evil - it will be revealed. Satan always reveals himself in one way or another." 

Suddenly the singer yelled in the microphone, "Jesus is coming - He is going to crack the skies - get ready!" The song was entitled, "Crack The Skies." Suddenly smoke was billowing out of smoke machines, the pounding beat was turned up to a frenzied pitch, eerie lights began flashing, the musicians stood like phantoms rising from a murky swamp. It was ghostly, weird, strange - and the crowd went wild - they seemed to love it. At the same festival, a wild spiked hair group had entertained - with painted faces, prancing about like homosexual peacocks. 

At first, I couldn't believe what I was seeing on stage. I said out loud, "This can't be happening at a Christian festival - they can't do this to my Jesus! These people can't be this blind - the leaders of this youth ministry can't be so undiscerning! Oh God - what has happened to your church that its leaders, its people, can't see the evil of this abomination?" 

Suddenly I was on the ground, on my back, weeping and sobbing, and groaning in the Spirit. I sat up and took another look at the stage. I was horrified by what I saw in the Spirit. I saw demonic images rising from that stage! I heard Satan laughing! Laughing at all the blind parents - the blind shepherds - the blind youth - the backslidden church! It was an overt manifestation of Satan - worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York. 

I stood to my feet, literally shaking with the fear of God - consumed with a sense of His holy wrath against such wickedness. I rushed into the crowd crying at the top of my voice - Ichabod! (The glory of the Lord has departed!) Ichabod! I ran through the crowd, pushing aside chairs, weeping, shouting at the top of my voice, "Ichabod - this is satanic! Stop! God is grieved!" I was mostly ignored and I think most thought I was a crazy lunatic. I doubt anybody knew who I was - the musicians could not hear me, and the crowd was too tight to allow me near the stage. I wanted to get to a microphone and cry like an Elijah - "This is vomit on the table of the Lord! Who are your teachers, that you could be so blind, so worldly, so deceived!? What kind of blasphemy is this?" 

I will not shut up on this matter! I will not be silent while multitudes of our Christian youth are being deceived by smooth-talking wolves in sheep's clothing! True love demands that the truth be told. 

What hurt my spirit the most, and what is so hard for me to understand, is that this particular group, and many others, attend Pentecostal churches. The musician I refer to told me he gave up drugs, drinking, evil sex and rock and roll performing when he got saved. He cut his long, feminine hair, he quit dressing like an exhibitionist and began to change all his ways. It was a pastor who encouraged him to "quit looking so square and use rock and roll to reach the kids." A teacher, in his sixties, travels on occasion with them, teaching them and encouraging them in their evil methods. According to their teacher, rock and roll is gong to be the "normal music in all Pentecostal and evangelical churches." 

It's now the middle of the night and I can't sleep! I can't stop weeping inside. I am shut in with God in my study diligently asking Him to show me what is happening, because hours ago I saw a few thousand young Christians, with uplifted hands, thinking it was Jesus, when it was most assuredly the devil. Has the church - or what man calls the church - so backslidden that there is no more discernment whatsoever? Has God given up on some who are set on bringing devilish practices into the realm of worship? 

Now I wonder - "Who dares teach such a Jesus - a Jesus who winks at deception? How blatantly they are mislearning Jesus Christ! What Jesus are they preaching?" 

"But Ye Have Not So Learned Christ" (Ephesians 4:20). 

That is what Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians. He was warning them not to walk as some do "in the vanity [pride] of their mind" (Ephesians 4:18). He warned of those who learned Christ in a perverted way, because their understanding was darkened. They were "cut off from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Ephesians 4:18). 

Some teacher, some shepherd, had mistaught Jesus Christ to them. The Christ they learned was not the Christ of God, the Lord of holiness, the master of purity. While they speak so sweetly of Jesus, and weep when they mention the name, and tell of a hunger to walk in the ways of Christ - Paul said of them, they "are past feeling and have given themselves over unto lasciviousness [lustfulness], to work all uncleanness with greediness" (Ephesians 4:19). 

That is what I saw last night at the music festival - a group of musicians who were pied pipers, leading many young people right into the arms of Satan with their smooth words about Jesus, about celebrating forgiveness - then with an energy of flesh and carnal greediness hard to fathom - they put their stamp of approval on a paganism right out of the devil's treasury. They were saying, by their music and their worldly, ghastly performance - that Jesus and the garbage of this world are compatible. They wore two masks - one of sincere followers of Christ, the other of performing clowns. With their faces lifted up to God, they cursed Him by their blasphemous mockery. Isaiah prophesied of such, "...they shall curse their king and their God, and look upward" (Isaiah 8:21). What they preach and practice are two different gospels. 

They are deceived, and consequently they are deceivers themselves. They have mislearned Christ! They have been duped, manipulated and cheated! They should have had a pastor or teacher with enough Holy Ghost discernment, with enough devotion to the true and holy Lord - to warn them, to show them that God does not put up with holding on to the old man and the old carnal ways. Why didn't their shepherds discern that these boys were walking in ignorance and spiritual blindness, not understanding the true demands of Christ? Why wasn't their greed dealt with - not so much for money and fame, but a greed that would not let go of the very thinking that once led them into drugs and emptiness. It's all coming out now - that these groups are falling on all sides, going back to the secular crowd, back to cocaine, back to groupies - playing the part of hypocrites and gospel phonies. Their shepherds are so easily conned, because they are blind in every way. Paul said it right, "For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret" (Ephesians 5:12). The very music they perform drives them back to darkness. 

Now - it's probably too late! They have rejected the reproof of prophets and watchmen who really preach the truth! They are like those Paul warns about, who have become so lost in spiritual ignorance and blindness, they are past feeling conviction. They are confirmed in their worldly ways! They are so blind they believe they are honoring Christ and blessing multitudes of youth the church "can't reach." 

Sin-Soft Preachers Are Driving This Generation Into Darkness 

"...they shall be driven to darkness..." (Isaiah 8:22). 

I blame their smooth talking, sin soft shepherds. Those same shepherds must one day stand before Christ's judgment seat and answer - not only for the musicians under their care - but for all the Christian young people they in turn have hurt and destroyed. Without flinching, I declare that cowardly ministers, those who want to be loved and honored rather than rejected for preaching truth, are driving this generation into deep spiritual darkness. 

We would not be facing a generation of backslidden, pleasure-loving, worldly minded youth in our churches - youth who do not even know the commandments of a holy Christ - if we had more holy, bold preachers and evangelists who could teach and preach the truth of Christ with purity and authority. 

I am not accusing all preachers and teachers - thank God for the few who still do not cower to the crowd or compromise for the sake of numbers and success. Maybe the youth won't listen to those of us who cry out against their lusting after the world - but when the judgments accelerate - they will turn to the preachers of holiness for a sure word from God. 

There is filth in Zion, and strangers have been exalted in the house of God - by blind, compromised, undiscerning Christian leaders. They are calling evil good, and the counsel of a righteous God is lightly esteemed. Hearts are hardening, ears are closing, eyes are being shut - because pride and flesh and ungodly entertainment is grieving the Holy Spirit right out of His temple. 

Isaiah warned, "...their root shall be as rottenness,...because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people..." (Isaiah 5:24, 25). 

Hell must be ecstatic at the spectacle of ministers not just abdicating to the immoral music standards of the young - but actually promoting what only demons should be promoting. Who brings these worldly bent groups into the church for concerts? Who encourages the youth to embrace the music of devils? Who ridicules evangelists and prophets and watchmen who cry out against it? Who puts it on radio, T.V. and who promotes the concerts and festivals that are now degenerating into satanic showcases? It is the pastors, youth ministers, Christian radio and T.V. station owners and managers. They will all live to see the wicked harvest of their soft gospel and compromise - as their very own children fall away to the spirit of this age. 

Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary defines whoredom as "the desertion of the worship of God for the worship of idolatry." A whoremonger is one who procures or promotes it. Any spiritual leader who procures or promotes this idolatrous desertion of true worship is truly a whoremonger. And Paul states emphatically, "No whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Ephesians 5:5). 

Young people - don't listen to the whoremongers listen instead to the apostle Paul - who warned, "Let no man [even preachers] deceive you with vain [empty] words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be ye not therefore partakers with them" (Ephesians 5:6, 7). 

Reprove Them! 

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:11). All spiritual work that is tainted with the least bit of darkness, God calls unfruitful works! This refutes the big lie of the devil being promoted by the pushers of "new wave" music, which argues, "But it can't be of the devil. Look at all the kids getting saved! Listen to their wonderful testimonies. They really reach the youth - many are getting saved. They speak in a way the kids understand they glorify Christ in their speech." 

God never has judged a work by results. No one is more successful in holding converts than the Muslims. No church is richer than the Vatican. The Jehovah Witnesses claim to be winning multitudes to Christ. 

God judges everything by light! That means, by how godly, how Christ-like it is - by how clear, how pure, how transparent it is. He repudiates and spits out of His mouth all that has even a part dark. John saw the Holy City descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. That is a holy people, a bride adorned and prepared for the Bridegroom. Its main characteristic is this: "Her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal!" (Revelation 21:11). 

Whatever is of God is clear as crystal! It is holiness so pure, it is translucent as a pure jasper stone. Those who are numbered in this holy Zion, this New Jerusalem coming down from God - have all stepped out into the light. There is no darkness in them at all - they have been translated into His light! They walk in the light - they hate darkness - they reprove it wherever it appears. The enemy has come into religious circles to destroy what is pure and clear by introducing a pagan element that creates a shadow or film. If Satan can inject the slightest degree of error, or evil leaven, he knows the Holy Spirit will draw back because of a grieving. That is why no mixture - no shadow of dark paganism must be permitted in Christ's church. 

Also, the Bible speaks of every seed yielding after its own kind (Genesis 1:12). An evil seed produces evil fruit, often not recognized until maturity. The rock and roll "prophets" of this generation are yielding a seed after their own kind - a seed that will one day bring forth a fruit that will wither and die. Jude makes that very clear, "...these feed themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots" (Jude 12). 

What of the good sounding testimonies, the sincere and convincing sermonettes? Paul has the answer. "Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them... For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Jesus Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting" (Romans 16:17, 18 NAS). 

Oh how God's people need discernment. Great deceptions abound every where, not only regarding the rock and punk music of the young, but also in regard to new forms of worship and praise being promoted. Some of it is born of the Holy Spirit, but much is born of the flesh - and only those who walk in the light know the difference. 

There is a revival of worship and praise in the land today, and much focus on prayer, intercession and new revelation. There is no question about there being more and more Christians standing for an hour or two - with great congregations singing and praising loudly. There are smiles, laughter, joy, hand clapping, upraised hands, dancing - never in modern times has there been a greater shout in the camp. 

Thank God for those in the camp who worship in Spirit and in truth - who lift clean hands and who have pure hearts - who come before His holiness with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If they are walking in holiness, trembling at God's Word, repentant and free from the bondage of sin - it is a glorious and acceptable offering unto the Lord. God does inhabit the praises of His people - but only if those people are walking in practical righteousness. 

But There Is a Shout Which is Shallow and Meaningless! 

There is the shout of the over comer and the shout of the idolater - and we had better know the difference. The Lord commanded Moses to "Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it" (Exodus 32:7,8). 

As Moses and Joshua approached the camp of Israel, Joshua "heard the noise of the people as they shouted..." (vs. 17). But it was not the shout of those who had overcome the enemy. The true shepherd Moses, having come fresh from the very presence of God's holiness - could easily discern that the great shout coming from the Lord's chosen people was not pure. Something was terribly wrong - it did not ring of the holiness of God. Moses said, "It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise them that sing do I hear" (Exodus 32:18). 

That's all it was meaningless, shallow noise - but an abomination in the ears of a holy God. They had no right to sing; their hearts were lusting after an idol. Their hearts were given to pleasure and fun. They stood before a golden calf - and in the name of the Lord offered burnt offerings. The people "sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play..." (Exodus 32:6). 

I received many letters from Christians whom I know have come through the school of Christ. They have come through much suffering and spiritual warfare to a place in God where nothing else matters but knowing Him in fullness. They were driven by such deep hunger for God, they began to thirst for Christ as "the hart that panteth after the water." They tell me how out of place they feel in these great assemblies where the shout in the camp goes forth. It all looks good, and on the surface sounds good. But they can't enter in, because they discern something is basically wrong. They can't even explain it - the Spirit of God within them will not let them partake of it. They discern some kind of unspeakable darkness - something subtle, yet ominous about all the flesh that accompanies the singing, shouting, and dancing. It is almost too professional, too put on, too carnal. They leave, thinking to themselves, "Is it me - is there something wrong with me? Am I too judgmental? Why am I not comfortable amidst all this singing and dancing?" 

Those who have stepped out into the light can easily discern the shadow of darkness. They will not be fooled by false shouting, false dancing, false worship, or false praying. 

True Zion saints rejoice with trembling! (Psalm 2:11). They know that gladness belongs only to "the upright in heart" (Psalm 97:11). They can sing and dance when the Spirit moves them, but with David they can say, "Zion heard, and was glad; and the daughters of Judah rejoiced because of Thy judgments, O Lord" (Psalm 97:8). Zion saints, "Give thanks to the Lord at the remembrance of His holiness" (Psalm 97:12). 

No punk or rock or phony shouting and praising for those walking in the light. They praise Him for both His goodness and because they tremble at His great and terrible name. 

"The Lord is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people... Let the people tremble... Let them praise Thy great and terrible [awe-inspiring] name; for it is holy" (Psalm 99:1-3). 




ITFIGURES 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/12/2001 8:34 am  
To:  itfigures   (2 of 46)  
 
  255.2 in reply to 255.1  
 
Hi,

 

Thank you for the Excellent post!

 

As misused as the Music is in the Church the Internet is also becoming very misused. Because on the internet Any person can claim anything and any Idea is being called Christianity.

 

Now is the time like never before for Christians to be studying the Bible to be in Prayer in Fellowship and in Service (helping others).

 

The Bible says that Jesus opened His mouth and began to speak Naturally. God is the creator of the universe. He created the natural and the normal. Jesus spoke naturally and normally. Jesus acted and behaved normal. To use the distortion of lights sound voice and music is part of what makes distortion Satanic. As Satan is out to distort and pervert what God intended to be natural.

 

I see that many of the Christian CD covers are so distorted that it looks Satanic even before you hear the music.

 

And for the critics Yes God can be Glorified in many ways, But in No way is everything that is called Christian by man and the world Christian. Only that which Jesus Christ approves of is Christian!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  LUVINJESUS20   11/12/2001 2:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 46)  
 
  255.3 in reply to 255.2  
 
I am hoping you all will get this email because I'm having trouble figuring out how to post. Anyways, for those of you who are true Christians AND music lovers, then you should listen to Steven Curtis Chapmans new album, "Declaration." One of my favorite songs on the album is called, "Jesus is Life." To find about more about him and his inspirational and uplifing music go here: www.babblebox.com. God bless! 
MR 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/12/2001 3:09 pm  
To:  LUVINJESUS20 unread  (4 of 46)  
 
  255.4 in reply to 255.3  
 
Thanks for the link.

 

Glad you got the posting to work.

 

I dont think anyone is anti music, it is just that Christians need to be careful in Everything. That includes preaching, teaching, prayer, music, movies, books, radio etc. 

 

Not everything that wears the label Christian is Christian and it seems that far too many Christians seem to be far too gullible in believing that every one who says God Bless or Praise the Lord is refereeing to Jesus.

 

I look forward to more of you comments and insights.

 

God Bless You,

David

Thanks for the link.

 

Glad you got the posting to work.

 

I dont think anyone is anti music, it is just that Christians need to be careful in Everything. That includes preaching, teaching, prayer, music, movies, books, radio etc. 

 

Not everything that wears the label Christian is Christian and it seems that far too many Christians seem to be far too gullible in believing that every one who says God Bless or Praise the Lord is refereeing to Jesus.

 

I look forward to more of you comments and insights.

 

God Bless You,

David




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Darin (sinkpiece)   11/28/2001 12:27 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 46)  
 
  255.5 in reply to 255.4  
 
<<<I dont think anyone is anti music, it is just that Christians need to be careful in Everything. That includes preaching, teaching, prayer, music, movies, books, radio etc. >>> 
I would agree with this wholeheartedly but would also say that it goes both ways. We also need to be careful of those running around claiming a universal category of something is a "wolf in sheeps" clothings.....especially when there is no Biblical support for it. 

yeh?

God bless,
Darin


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  From:  FynalAnser   12/1/2001 9:45 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 46)  
 
  255.6 in reply to 255.2  
 
---- and of course jesus tells you personally what he does and doesn't approve of, and you pass your version on to the rest of us ?? 
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/23/2001 8:50 pm  
To:  FynalAnser unread  (7 of 46)  
 
  255.7 in reply to 255.6  
 
I agree that Jesus tells you what is approved; but we also have to keep in mind that Jesus also told us through the written Word, and we should delve into it as well!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   12/26/2001 6:43 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 46)  
 
  255.8 in reply to 255.4  
 
FINALLY!!!!! 
I'm SICK and TIRED of xtians invading the domain of exclusively Satanic music I belong to, which is extremem metal; Black Metal, Death Metal and so on.... 

I find it RIDICULOUS and IRRITATING to find xtian bands using OUR music, thinking they do anyone a favor by polluting our scene with their talentless, obnoxious and vile CRAP. They don't know how to create true metal, and they act like jackasses!!!!!! 

But most of all: METAL IS NOT FOR XTIANS!!!!!!!!! IT NEVER WAS, NEVER WILL BE!!!!!!!! METAL IS SATANIC!!!!! 

Xtians should stick to their gospel and leave metal alone. 

Signed in SATANIC BLOOD!!!!!
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 5:35 pm  
To:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   (9 of 46)  
 
  255.9 in reply to 255.8  
 
<<<I find it RIDICULOUS and IRRITATING to find xtian bands using OUR music,>>> 
If you choose to hang around here and discuss what is going on, you should at least have enough respect to use the word Christians, instead of xtians. As for the above statement, I also find it riduculous, irritating, and unGodly to use Satanic based music to allegedly "Praise the Lord"! As far as calling them Christian bands, that's debatable, as if they were they wouldn't be compromising the Word of God with it, to reach anyone. 

<<<But most of all: METAL IS NOT FOR XTIANS!!!!!!!!! IT NEVER WAS, NEVER WILL BE!!!!!!!! METAL IS SATANIC!!!!!>>> 

I agree and maybe those who think it's alright will change their minds by reading your post. Thank you and if you choose, maybe someday you will know the Lord, He loves you and we as Christians do too! 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/26/2001 6:30 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (10 of 46)  
 
  255.10 in reply to 255.9  
 
Could someone explain to me why heavy metal music STYLE is satanic? I thought it was the LYRICS that make something satanic...not the beat or the instruments. I mean, you oculd write satanic lyrics to absolutely anything. This confuses me. Why arent Christian hard rock bands Christian if their lyrics praise the Lord? 
karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 6:46 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (11 of 46)  
 
  255.11 in reply to 255.10  
 
If we want to praise the Lord, then we should do it in the way the Bible intended. With lute, lyre, harp, etc. God wants to here our praise not screeching, screaming guitars and drumbeats so loud, no one can hear the words. We are told not to compromise our Christian Values after we come to Christ. I listened to AC-DC, Black Sabbath, Ozzy after he left Black Sabbath, before I came to Christ. Not only do these bands adopt the style and looks of Satanic bands. But when I tried to listen to one of PODs song, all that ran through my mind was "Highway to Hell" and "War Pigs". That's how it affects Christians. It makes them things of unGodly things and takes their focus off of God. Not only that, Heavy Metal has always been associated with evil, and we as Christians are commanded not to put on the appearance of evil. Now it's to the point where one needs to ask theirself, what's more important to me? Worldly secular sounding evil oriented music or Jesus? There will be no heavy metal in Heaven.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/26/2001 7:23 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (12 of 46)  
 
  255.12 in reply to 255.11  
 
You said ***If we want to praise the Lord, then we should do it in the way the Bible intended. With lute, lyre, harp, etc. God wants to here our praise not screeching, screaming guitars and drumbeats so loud, no one can hear the words.*** 
Please, show me the scripture where it says that the lute, lyre and harp are the only things acceptable to God. What about an organ? 
Also, please quote the scriptures that instruct as to loudness, and drumbeats. 

***But when I tried to listen to one of PODs song, all that ran through my mind was "Highway to Hell" and "War Pigs". That's 
how it affects Christians.*** 

No, that is how it affects you. So you should stay away from it. Anything that affects your walk should be avoided...but we are all different, and you have not shown me where it says anything about beat or music in the bible. 

***There will be no heavy metal in Heaven.*** 

Please, share the scripture to back this statement. 

karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 7:31 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (13 of 46)  
 
  255.13 in reply to 255.12  
 
I've come to find out that you just like to argue, so I won't be posting back on everything you say. As I said, the music is associated with secular Satanic music, we are told to avoid the appearance of evil. And if you expect to see heavy metal in Heaven, it is my opinion you will be disappointed. I can show you many scripture that says these are the instruments they used to praise God, but as learned as you are, you know where they are. And yes it might only affect me that way, but the Bible also tells us not to do anything in witnessing His Word and His Love that might cause another to err. Now if you have a problem finding this verse, let me know, I'll post this one!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/26/2001 7:37 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (14 of 46)  
 
  255.14 in reply to 255.13  
 
***I've come to find out that you just like to argue, so I won't be posting back on everything you say. *** 
Actually, i enjoy good discussion, and feel that healthy disagreement allows us to grow. Please do not presume to know anything about me. You do not. 

I am simply attempting to understand. Yes, the bible describes instruments that were used, but it doesn't limit the instruments we MIGHT use. You have not given me ONE scriptural reference for your statements, yet you seem to feel you represent the opinions and word of God. I am not learned...i am simply wondering. Scriptural references, please. 

karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/27/2001 6:37 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (15 of 46)  
 
  255.15 in reply to 255.14  
 
Mark 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. 
This music is labeled "the music of the dead". How can you edify the living God with music of the dead. 

James 1:16-17 Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 

It says "Father of lights", not father of darkness. This music is also labeled "Gothic" and "Dark". These are things associated with Satanism and witchcraft. The place I went to check the lyrics of the song I posted, have it listed under "Gothic Christian". These words do not belong together. Just for the record, Ozzy Osbourne claims to have been born again, but has forsaken his past. Would you listen to him? Just because they claim Christianity doesn't make it so. There are many that will tell you they are Christian, but do things unacceptable to God. I am blessed in that to date God has given the power to discern who is truthful about their Christianity and who is not. I don't see Godliness in this group. Whether you do or not is your decision. Pray for the right one. 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/27/2001 7:06 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (16 of 46)  
 
  255.16 in reply to 255.15  
 
****This music is labeled "the music of the dead"**** 
Where is it labeled such? 

****This music is also labeled "Gothic" and "Dark". ***** 

Where? 

*** I am blessed in that to date God has given the power to discern who is truthful about their Christianity and who is not.**** 

WOW. You have great power. We dont need God anymore, we can just depend on you to judge everyone. 

Be careful my friend, you are treading in dangerous waters. 

karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/27/2001 7:20 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (17 of 46)  
 
  255.17 in reply to 255.16  
 
Even the Bible says that true believers will be granted the gifts of the spirit. Discerning the spirits is a gift of the spirit. I just let you know He has allowed me this gift, for you to get smart with me, and question it; maybe it is you that should be careful. Go to just about any CD selling place and they described it as Dark, Gothic, and some secular places described it as music of the dead. these are all satanic references.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/27/2001 7:26 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (18 of 46)  
 
  255.18 in reply to 255.17  
 
****I just let you know He has allowed me this gift, for you to get smart with me, and question it; maybe it is you that should be careful***** 
EEEKKKKK is that like some kind of spiritual threat? Anyone who disagrees with you, questions you, or gets "smart" with you better watch out? Yikes! 

I personally think heavy metal style Christian bands are just that...Christian bands with a certain style. Of course if a band calls itself satanic it is...but your arguements have ranged from saying the bible only accepts certain instruments to saying that God tells you personally who is Christian. You really cant answer my questions, can you? 

karen


  
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  From:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   12/28/2001 12:17 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (19 of 46)  
 
  255.19 in reply to 255.18  
 
The point here is this: God might have given the world gospel and hymns or not, BUT SATAN TWISTED IT INTO METAL!!! After all, Satan is, according to your own doctrine, the undisputable musical uber-genious. 
So, xtians should stick to their limited musical domains and leave true metal alone. They just don't know how to play it, and only serve Satan by sucking up to HIS musical ideas. 

So, back to the lute, harp and flutes you should go. 

***think on that and be dismayed***
 
  
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   From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 5:48 am  
To:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   (20 of 46)  
 
  255.20 in reply to 255.19  
 
to quote a famous old author, "methinks the gentleman doth protest too much"...if we are really meant to stay away, why do you find the christian take0ver of the metal-style music so threatening? Hmmmm maybe we are on to something here... 
karen


  
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From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 6:20 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (21 of 46)  
 
  255.21 in reply to 255.18  
 
****I just let you know He has allowed me this gift, for you to get smart with me, and question it; maybe it is you that should be careful***** 
Karen! LOOK OUT!!! Your'e getting "smart!" Quick! Take a "stupid" pill! yu'll be OK in a few minutes. 

Alex 


www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 6:32 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   (22 of 46)  
 
  255.22 in reply to 255.21  
 
*bursts out laughing* kinda sounds like he is with a God-gestapo doesnt it? 
karen


  
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  From:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   12/28/2001 6:33 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (23 of 46)  
 
  255.23 in reply to 255.20  
 
Onto what?? With those lame bands? *ROFL*
Know that the entire metal-scene laughs at your "ambassadors" within the metal-realm, while a few, like myself, will wage war to fight their pathetic presence...

They're really making FOOLS outta themselves. The reason I find it irritating is because they pester that which is known as "extreme metal."

instead of black metal, xtians calls it "unblack"

This is what your xtian "artists" looks like.

Do they look xtian to you? No, but they sure don't look satanic either. They look PATHETIC!

**Think on that and be dismayed**
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 6:38 am  
To:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   (24 of 46)  
 
  255.24 in reply to 255.23  
 
Wow, you sure are intense. Do all satanists need ritalyn, or is it just you? 
If we are so pathetic, why does it bother you so much? I mean, your reactions are so extreme. I bet if all satanists were like you, our battle would be much easier. You are so strung out, you are vibrating. 

Wage war? Wow...you can actually stop them from playing music? How? 

You know, i think you are young, intense, and on the wrong path. Go home little boy, and come back when you are older. 

karen


  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 6:50 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (25 of 46)  
 
  255.25 in reply to 255.22  
 
Karen, 
Actually, I agree with both of these "gentelmen." "Christian music" produced since the 1500s is a bit lame. I'm used to more "meaty" lyrics. 

I also don't trust "Christian music" produced with a profit motive. 

Alex 


www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   12/28/2001 6:50 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (26 of 46)  
 
  255.26 in reply to 255.24  
 
Your personal opinion on me will not trigger anything, xtian. You're not the first self acclaimed analyzer I've encountered, nor will you be the last. What you think of anything is of no interest whatsoever.
I support true christians fight against contemporary music, and this is my way of showing them how their own flirts with Satan. That needs to be eradicated, and both parties will benefit. When among fanatics and zealots, talk their talk. That's how attention is evokened.

***Think on that and be dismayed***
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 7:13 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   (27 of 46)  
 
  255.27 in reply to 255.25  
 
Why is profit bad? Do you not make a profit? How else are we to survive in this world? 
karen


  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 7:15 am  
To:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   (28 of 46)  
 
  255.28 in reply to 255.26  
 
Oh, you are supporting Christians? How nice to have help from the other side. 
karen


  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 7:19 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (29 of 46)  
 
  255.29 in reply to 255.27  
 
As one 5th century desert monk told his disciple, when you must sell baskets at the market, try to do so at a loss. 
Life demands that we work and pay bills. But the pursuit of profit for its own sake leads to greed. 

And greed is a poor reason for composing Christian music. 

Alex

www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 7:23 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   (30 of 46)  
 
  255.30 in reply to 255.29  
 
I guess we view things differently. i see no harm in wealth if that wealth is not what is worshiped. 
karen


  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 7:41 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (31 of 46)  
 
  255.31 in reply to 255.30  
 
Karen, 
<<i see no harm in wealth if that wealth is not what is worshiped.>> 

Neither do I! 

But that kind of humility requires the ability to eat an egg without cracking the shell! 

Perhaps I could see your point better if you would share with me a single parable of Christ in which He portrayed the rich man in a better light than the poor man. 

Alex

www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 7:43 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   (32 of 46)  
 
  255.32 in reply to 255.31  
 
I dont have a single parable...but i think the message is that wealth is not to be worshiped. I would not work for no pay and i dont expect musicians to do it either simply because they are Christian. Does your pastor work for free? 
karen


  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 8:07 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (33 of 46)  
 
  255.33 in reply to 255.32  
 
Karen, 
No, both Priests are on salary. But it's a 24/7 job and I have no idea how they are going to put their kids through college. 

However, the choirmaster, the financial officer, and the ordained Deacon are un-paid volunteers. 

Alex

www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 8:18 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   (34 of 46)  
 
  255.34 in reply to 255.33  
 
*** But it's a 24/7 job and I have no idea how they are going to put their kids through college**** 
Isnt that sad? That we dont pay them adequately to care for their children the way that we do? And then act as if it is expected and holy to not be able to provide for your children...Sorry, i do NOT agree. 

I am assuming that the "unpaid volunteers" also have jobs. 

karen 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/28/01 11:24:49 AM ET by KAREN10051 
  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   12/28/2001 8:42 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (35 of 46)  
 
  255.35 in reply to 255.34  
 
Karen, 
First, both men are intelligent and hard working, and could have had their choice of professions. 

Second, their modest salery comes with good benefits and a generous expense account that covers housing and transportation. Truth is, they're not doing all that bad. And a LOT of people worry about putting their kids through college! 

Third, no one takes this job for the money. They just don't print enough of the stuff to make a man get into this line of work for the cash alone. 

Of the others I mentioned, the financial officer is retired, and the choir master and Deacon do have outside jobs. But the ammount of time they devote to the Church easily equals a full time job. 

And I still don't like modern "Christian" music. It seems to be composed by people more concerned more about the right rhyme than the right theology. Sorry. 

Alex 


www.stseraphim.org 
www.delphi.com/orthodoxway 
If you love Jesus, honk x40!
 
  
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  From:  Demonized (AntiKhrist)   12/28/2001 9:29 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (36 of 46)  
 
  255.36 in reply to 255.28  
 
Yes, it must be a nice change for you. I mean, since you seldom act on your own initiative, but sits around waiting for a higher power to make up it's mind for you...

***Think on that and be dismayed*** 
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 12:14 pm  
To:  Demonized (AntiKhrist) unread  (37 of 46)  
 
  255.37 in reply to 255.36  
 
You really know alot about me dont you? In fact, i seldom "wait around".. 
karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/28/2001 7:30 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (38 of 46)  
 
  255.38 in reply to 255.18  
 
It was not a threat, just a warning so you didn't compromise your Christian beliefs; but the way you're talking, maybe there are none to compromise?
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/28/2001 8:06 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (39 of 46)  
 
  255.39 in reply to 255.38  
 
Excuse me? Please, spare me any further exposure to your pious disposition. Obviously anyone who dares question or disagree with you is unchristian to you. Perhaps you should look deeply into your heart, my friend, because you are neither my judge nor my father. 
karen


  
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   From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/28/2001 10:18 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (40 of 46)  
 
  255.40 in reply to 255.39  
 
Just a Child of God express what He has shown me. And I don't mind you calling me pious, because Peter and Paul were considered Pious.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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From:  karen (karen10051)   12/29/2001 3:11 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (41 of 46)  
 
  255.41 in reply to 255.40  
 
My opinion is that you mistake arrogance for piety and domineering behavior for humility. You hide behind the cloak of the Lord and act as if it is your cloak. You vaguely threaten any little woman who dares question you, and when you have nothing left to use, you fall back on questioning my faith. 
I think you are probably a child of God, but i hope and believe you do not represent anything He has taught. 

karen


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/29/2001 8:14 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (42 of 46)  
 
  255.42 in reply to 255.41  
 
It is your opinion that I'm arrogant, but God tells me to be bold when discussing His Word. Domineering behavior also doesn't enter into it. What I teach is Biblical! It is fact that if you don't do as the Lord has ask, that you will not know Him. And the warning was because you shouldn't accuse any fellow Christian of something you have no proof. If you look back you were the first to accuse. This does not display Christian virtue. My reply was geared to you by the unGodly accusation you made in the first place. I am a Child of God as I too hope you are; but in all honesty; I was not the one that erred!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/29/2001 9:05 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (43 of 46)  
 
  255.43 in reply to 255.42  
 
****And the warning was because you shouldn't accuse any fellow Christian of something you have no proof.**** 
Right back atcha my friend. 

****If you look back you were the first to accuse. This does not display Christian virtue.**** 

My friend, if you honestly believe that this is wrong, my having done it "first" does not give you licence to do it as well...or does your morality suggest that its ok as long as you didnt do it "first"? 

Karen 


  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/30/2001 1:37 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (44 of 46)  
 
  255.44 in reply to 255.43  
 
People see things differently even when they are supposed to be of one accord, I guess. The warning was to keep you from compromising your Christian virtues. Simply that. It was not intended or delivered as an accusation.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/30/2001 2:57 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (45 of 46)  
 
  255.45 in reply to 255.44  
 
I see. So, when I disagree it is an accusation. When you accuse it is a warning...I understand now. Thank you for explaining. 
karen


  
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   From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/30/2001 7:28 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (46 of 46)  
 
  255.46 in reply to 255.45  
 
Just a case of misunderstanding. I concede!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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